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Bot policy/Implementation

Did you read m:Bot policy/Implementation? There stands On the local bot status request page (or a community discussion page if that doesn't exist), propose the policy with the following text: Our local bot status request page is Wikinews Diskussion:Bots. The community discussion page is Wikinews:Pressestammtisch. Therefore I would like to delete Wikinews:Bot_policy, the page you've created recently. I advice you, to use Wikinews_Diskussion:Bots or in order to make sure more or less active German Wikinews users get noticed it to use Wikinews:Pressestammtisch. My position to that policy is, that as a German Wikinews user I want to have the possibility to discuss every single potential bot uses or bot flag grants on a local German Wikinews page. MfG Blaite 10:59, 15. Mär. 2008 (CET)

You are welcome to do that but because User:Mathias Schindler is inactive you may want to implement that for now. -- Cat ^chi? 13:47, 15. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Actually, I am not inactive but I do have a real life :) -- Mathias Schindler

Ah, life is good. I feared you might have vanished. :)-- Cat ^chi? 03:30, 18. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Further bot discussion

What is the connection between Bot_policy/Implementation and Mathias Schindler? MfG Blaite 13:51, 15. Mär. 2008 (CET)

First: I have just deleted the page. I'm really disappointed about your behaviour here. I already asked you to discuss proposals on our Pressestammtisch before, and now you just skip that step again. I do not want to exagerate but this could be seen as rude behaviour and an affront to the people actually running this project.

Second: de-Wikinews has a bureaucrat as Blaite already mentioned, also de-Wikinews has established a local mechanism for granting bot flags. Therefore imho no steward would ever grant a bot flag here. I believe they will always point to the local bureaucrat because they are obliged to act only when the local project can not act themselves.

Third: The perceived inactivity of Mathias has no effect whatsoever on our local bot policy. I can assure you that Mathias will grant a bot flag in a timely manner when there is consensus about it. While he is not overly active here, we have been able to reach him in the past when needed and i'm absolutely sure that this won't change in the future. But as your request for a bot flag was denied at the moment, he will not grant it. Its as simple as that. You have pointed out in discussion with me that there might be a technical need for the flag (i will probably ask the wikimedia technicians), so our consensus might change. But please do not try to bypass our mechanism for bot flags. Also if you really feel that the perceived inactivity of Mathias Schindler is a problem, you should probably not ask for a change in the bot policy but propose to elect a second bureaucrat. -- Kju 18:45, 15. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Addendum: I have now asked the technicians. Your bot will not be blocked for mass-edits even without a bot flag as there is simply no such function in the wiki software. If you experienced blocks on other projects, this might be to anti-vandalism bots running on that projects. We don't have such a bot here. So to summarize: 1. There is no technical need for your bot to have a bot flag. 2. At least two people (including me) want to be able to see the changes of your bot (it already made errornous edits as i pointed out!) and therefore oppose a bot flag. Combine 1 and 2 and the conclusion is that a bot flag will likely not be granted. Just operate your bot without the bot flag and everything will be fine. -- Kju 19:02, 15. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Oh and one more thing: It seems that you actually misinterpreted the standard bot policy as well. On m:Bot_policy it is clearly stated that If there is a local community interested in processing bot applications, bots must obtain community approval on the most relevant local discussion page before editing without a bot flag at high speeds or without human supervision. Therefore implementation of the standard bot policy would not remove the need to ask for permission on out local page. So implementing the bot policy has no advantage or effect in my opinion against our current situation. It even requires bot operators to ask for permission before operating bots, may i remember you that you just started running your bot here without asking? Maybe you should reread the bot policy to understand your obligations? -- Kju 19:26, 15. Mär. 2008 (CET)

I am sorry I can't make sense of this hostile attitude. I am merely trying to help. I do not understand what the big deal is. In no way am I "obligated" to do anything. I am no ones slave. -- Cat ^chi? 03:09, 16. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Do not mix cause and effect. It is you who is acting "hostile". Without contacting the people in charge of the project you just act. I kindly asked you to discuss ideas on the Pressestammtisch. You ignored that request and created a page under the wikinews-namespace without consensus yesterday. This is inacceptable. Do you really wonder why people are upset about such behaviour? You did not even notify us about the new page. How shall we discuss a proposal we aren't made aware of? Or did you just hope that the proposal will pass unnotified and therefore undisputed? And while you are no ones slave, you are absolutely obligated to play by the rules. This is clearly pointed out in the standard bot policy which you tried to introduce. Why are you trying to introduce a policy which you apparently choose to ignore anyway? As i already said: Just run your bot without the bot flag and i assume everything will be fine. But please accept that rules are also valid for you and trying to circumvent the people running a project will not lead to success. -- Kju 14:50, 16. Mär. 2008 (CET) PS: I read where i answer, please refrain from copying this to my discussion page. Thank you.

Lets talk when you calmed down. I will not discuss a thing with such an attitude. -- Cat ^chi? 17:36, 16. Mär. 2008 (CET)

I'm calm and i was calm all the time. I just don't understand the fuss about the bot flag. Please just run your bot without it. It is our decision - as the project - that we want to see the edits of your bot by default. Please accept our decision. As long as it does not affect your bot operation why do you care? I was asserted by the wikimedia technicians that the flag does not make any difference to the operation. If this turns out to be false, we can always change our decision. Please lets settle this pointless dispute. -- Kju 12:18, 18. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Alright. I want to settle this dispute as well. Firstly I want to correct a few of the misunderstandings that may have upset you.

• I added the "standard bot policy" thing because I did not think that there was a local one and that the bureaucrat was gone for good. It was a mistake on my part to assume such a thing. It at no point was an attempt to bypass the community.
• I had not requested a bot flag on this wiki until very recently. First I wanted to get my bot username renamed from WOPR to Computer. I was originally going to request a flag after the rename so as not to get involved with multiple parallel processes. In the past such a thing upset communities so I was trying to avoid that.
• Some wikis will block a bot not operating with a bot flag on sight as a lack of a bot flag may pollute the RC feed. So long as it is fine with the community for me to operate a bot without a flag, that is fine by me.
• A lack of a bot flag alone does not affect the activity of the bot. However the Mediawiki spam autoblocker permits me to make 6-7 edits per minute from a single IP. Thats 6-7 edits on all wikis and not just this one. So say if I am inter wikilinking 20 wikis (say - adding a new one) this will break the bots operation causing it to abort. This isn't a critical problem but never the less a problem. It probably won't be much of a problem until distant future but I want to avoid such issues as much as I can.

-- Cat ^chi? 19:13, 19. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Have you any documentation regarding the mentioned mediawiki spam autoblocker? As i said, i talked to the techs and they said, the missing bot flag would not have such effects. Maybe they misunderstood me or i misunderstood them. -- Kju 19:32, 19. Mär. 2008 (CET)

When I was interwiki linking my userpage and/or posting bot flag requests on many wikis I got the "Action throttled" warning and I was denied making edits (on any wikis not just here) for a minute or two. I may not be able to edit en.wikipedia during that one minute period for example. I am not 100% sure how "Action throttled" supposed to work. I did not see this problem with my accounts with bot flags. If I only fail to have a bot flag on this wiki, this is not much of a problem but if the number of such wikis increases I would have a problem. I basically want to minimize the risk. -- Cat ^chi? 21:05, 19. Mär. 2008 (CET)

I will further analyze, maybe have a look into the mediawiki source. Stay tuned. -- Kju 21:26, 19. Mär. 2008 (CET)

Any progress? -- Cat ^chi? 16:58, 30. Mär. 2008 (CEST)